Firearms in Glacier National Park

by Terry
(Whitefish)

Am I allowed to open carry a pistol in the park?

Answer:

Yes, you are now allowed to carry guns in our National Parks **sigh**

That said, don't expect a pistol to save your life if a Grizzly Bear is charging. They reach speeds of 35 MPH.

Unless you're a trained cop, you will not be able to pull your gun out, aim, and shoot it dead with the fear of a charging Grizzly Bear.

Instead, purchase bear spray.


Bear spray is a far more effective deterrent than a gun

. Not to mention, a lot cheaper, too.

** Editor's Update - 8/11 **

It seems time to address the comments this page has received and there is no better place to address them than from the top.

I can admit when my comments and thoughts are wrong and judging by the reaction from so many with greater firearm experience than me (but likely less grizzly bear experience), my statement regarding 'unless you're a trained police officer...' is incorrect to many.

My original--and most important--point is this:

When facing a charging grizzly bear, it is far easier to shoot out a burst of bear spray that forms a protective cloud in front of you than it is to aim and shoot an effective shot from your handgun.

Many of the commentators here have spoken up that they can shoot better than a cop in a firing range. I believe you.

But accuracy in a firing range is very different than accuracy in the face of a charging grizzly bear.

That said, I'm sure that a handful of you have experience in the backwoods with a grizzly bear, cougar etc.

I'm also not here to impose my viewpoints on anyone regarding your right to carry firearms in National Parks. I have my opinion, you have yours. There's certainly no right or wrong.

It seems that many individuals here are more scared of humans in National Parks than wildlife. To that, I'm sorry you are so terrified of your own species. 99.9% wish to do you no harm. And you'll probably never encounter the other 0.1%

In the end, neither bear spray nor a gun will save you from the greatest killer in our National Parks: drownings. Only your brain will.

Dare I say, the same applies to grizzly bears.

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Firearms in Glacier National Park

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Aug 25, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		have common sense
by: Anonymous

No obviously the chances of drawing, aiming, and shooting accurately at a charging grizzly is slim, but what if by chance a bear actually gets a hold of a person in your group. Do you think bear spray will work to get the bear to stop? I doubt it now you throw a couple 44 mag slugs into its soft tissue which I admit there isn't a lot of I bet you find a dead grizzly and a member of your group that escapes with their life. Not a dead person and still pissed off grizzly that just got pepper sprayed.

**Editor's Note**

You clearly have no experience with grizzly bears and have no idea what you're talking about.

There has never been an instance of a 'pissed off' grizzly bear attacking someone after getting sprayed.

The bear spray disorients the bear, causing it's face to swell up, eyes to tear, and partially blinds it for a period of time.

What if a bear actually gets a hold of someone in your group? Well, that's happened only twice in the last decade.

How many drownings have happened in Glacier National Park in the last decade? At least one a year.

Again, you have a lot more to fear from a river than from a grizzly bear or another person.
Aug 18, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Firearms in GNP (or any other NP)
by: Lee

Firearms are Absolutely Appropriate. So is Bear Spray.

Bear spray won't work worth a darn if the wind is blowing. Since no one can control the wind (that I'm aware of anyway), a firearm makes a good backup.

People who carry firearms, for the most part, know how to use them. Your casual hiker isn't going to suddenly decide to go to Glacier or any other park and decide on a whim to buy and carry a pistol. If they don't already have one, they aren't going to go buy one, law or no law. So you aren't going to have a bunch of amateurs out there brandishing .25 autos. They also know that the venerable 9mm is not an appropriate weapon so you won't have a group out there with .38 specials and 9mm sa's. Instead you'll have a few with Glock .40's, but more with Colt .45's, Remington .44 magnums, and more substantial firearms. Any of these will do more than aggravate a b'ar if needed.

As far as being able to draw, aim and effectively shoot an animal that is running at 35 mph, I would contend that most times a bear will not come with a full-out charge. Instead they'll do a bluff charge but stop several feet from their intended target. So the probability will be that the bear will be walking or trotting at best - a much easier target than a bouncing ball at a full run.

Discharging a firearm above a bear is also a wake-up call to the bear that he is dealing with a human instead of prey. A loud BANG gets their attention as does a loud shout. The firearms carrier may have to do nothing more than that to preserve both his own life and the bears.

Spray will put out a nice cloud and will deter a bear from a final attack - usually - but if the wind is blowing, spray won't do squat. At that point, having a large caliber handgun, rifle or a shotgun will protect your life, where reasoning with the bear will, in all probability, fail to do so. Spray is also some 40$ a pop and is a one-shot-wonder. A firearm carries 5 or 6 shots minimum and can be reloaded at relatively low expense. You can practice with a firearm, then reuse it. Try that with spray and you won't reuse it.

Firearms don't have an expiration date. Most sprays I've seen do.

My evaluation is that most people who carry in grizzly country aren't going to be rank amateurs with firearms and can use them effectively. People will carry them for protection, not to aggressively go after bear, so there should not be an increase in problem situations.

6 dead from attacks in 30 years isn't bad odds, that is, except for those 6 who died.

Aug 15, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Dennis, your comments are completely irrelevant.
by: Perry (Editor)

Dennis, your comments are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

This is about guns in National Parks--not about the importance of being prepared to withstand a catastrophic attack (by man or nature).

Any additional off-topic comments will be deleted.
Aug 15, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		nope
by: Dennis K

To assert that there are no bad people in the world is the height of stupidity. To assert that because the bad people are outnumbered by the good people means that one should not bother to be prepared to be met by bad people is approaching the first assertion.

It is not paranoid to be prepared. In fact, because of the fact that I and my entire family are prepared for the worst possible scenario - as much as is possible in this world - I have very few worries or concerns.

Preparedness for me involves many things. One son is an EMT, another and myself are first responders, my wife is versed in firearms and weapons of all sorts, we all maintain good physical condition, we have annual checkups from our family physician, we hike, we store food by freezing, canning, and freeze-drying. We've enough water to last at least two weeks, stored in different locations, we've food in multiple locations, we store stabilized fuel in case of extreme emergencies and have vehicles located in three places, including a four-wheeler. We keep a supply of medicines, bandages, and otc supplies available. And, yes, we've firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. We also have fishing rods, lures, hunting blinds, various attractants for game, etc.

Preparedness is not paranoia. We live in an area where there are killer tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, etc., any of which can interrupt a persons normal ability to get supplies. Should that happen, we are prepared.

Ignoring the fact that things can - and do - happen, seems to me to be foolhardy, even when a person is in familiar civilized surroundings. When a person is in the wilderness, ignoring these things will get you killed in a hurry and cause others no end of expense and pain to find your sorry tail - or what's left of it
Aug 14, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Paranoia
by: Perry

Paranoia, paranoia, everybody's coming to get me...
Aug 13, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Doing the math
by: Dennis K

Lets' see - there are 7 billion people in the world, give or take a billion or so.

So 99.9% mean you no harm. That leaves just what??? 7 million people in the world who want to kill you. Or rob you, assault you, etc.

And given that the number of criminals in the world (as a percentage of the population) is greater than 0.1%, I'd say that number is actually very low.

But, who's counting...
Aug 12, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		2 legged bears
by: Dennis K

To point out the problems one might have in National Parks, at the present time a convicted murderer and his girlfriend are being sought in Yellowstone Park, as I understand the news. Why? Because it's remote, hard to get into and out of, and it's easy to disappear in the wilderness, of which there is a substantial amount in YNP.

Example of 'farmer problems': In the Winona Wildlife Management Area in Southeastern Arkansas, an Arkansas Game and Fish Information officer was going on a turkey hunt with some friends when he stumbled into a 'farmer's trap' - he was shot in the face by a shotgun trap. While being armed didn't help him, if the 'farmer' had been around the fact that his companions were all armed to the teeth would have stood them in good stead.

In Central Arkansas over the past summer, the greatest number of assaults on women have come as the result of home intrusions. Rape, assault and battery, theft, have all been common themes this past year.

In Little Rock, a young lady, Anne Pressley, was assaulted, raped and murdered (she died five days later). While a firearm may have not prevented her death, it would have given her a chance that she did not have.

Two legged bears are more dangerous predators than four, but either can kill quickly.
Aug 12, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Just Start Over
by: Anonymous

This page is a mess. Just delete everyone's comments, including your own and just stat over.

Your answer doesn't need to be longer than one word; "yes".

I'd suggest making a separate page weighing the merits of bear spray vs. gun if you feel that strongly about it.
Aug 12, 2010
Rating
star 		Get a clue
by: BambiB

>> Unless you're a trained cop, you will not be able to pull your gun out, aim, and shoot it dead with the fear of a charging Grizzly Bear.

Actually, most cops don't shoot worth a damn. Once past their basic training, they typically shoot only once or twice a year, and only 50-100 rounds total.

That's not much.

I've had years when I've put more than 8,000 rounds down range in a single year - not for competition or anything, just for fun.

Now, if you do the math, you'll soon realize that I've had more practice shooting in a single year than most cops get in an entire career.

When it comes to shooting, cops aren't much of a standard.

As for whether guns are effective against grizzlies... wasn't there already one case this year where a hiker had to take out a charging grizz?

** Editor's Note **

Please read more than 2 lines and you'll see my response about cops.

And yes, there was a case this year when a hiker in Glacier had to take out a charging grizzly bear.

He used bear spray.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstar 		Color me puzzled...
by: PavePusher

I am not sure how it is that one will not have time to draw/aim/discharge a firearm, but will have time to draw/aim/discharge bear spray.

I am further confused on how the bear spray's "protective cloud" would keep me safe but bullets can not.

I don't carry either when I'm in the water.

Just sayin'....

** Editor's Note **

The drownings are primarily due to people jostling for a better angle to take a picture and then slipping and falling into a rushing creek.

Happens every year.

And please read up on what bear spray actually does and then you won't be colored so puzzled anymore.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		You missed the point entirely
by: Anonymous

Just another libtard who can't separate "gun ownership" from "hunting".

Because in his mind guns are only used for hunting, therefore if you want to carry a gun in the park you must be trying to kill something. This is further evidenced by the "only the police" mentality, as if they are the epitome of marksmanship and responsible gun ownership.

Self-defense? This idea never even crossed his mind. Run into trouble in the middle of a Nation Park? No problem! Just as soon as you run to a place with cell phone coverage the Park Ranger is only hours away!

** Editor's Note **

I've been trying to keep this discussion civil, so please keep the childish name calling to yourself.

If you'd take a few minutes to actually read the discussion, you might realize that I in no way believe guns are carried into National Parks for hunting.

The discussion is about the effectiveness of bear spray vs a gun.

Further name calling and assumptions of me being a tree hugging, libtard (which are 100% false), will only result in me deleting your comment and banning you from the discussion.

Again, drownings cause far more deaths in National Parks than anything else--including all those scary humans lurking at a campsite, biding their time for the perfect moment to rape you and your family.

Get a grip on reality.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		BEAR WARNING
by: Anonymous

Bear Advisory

The Forest Service has issued a BEAR WARNING in the national forests for this summer. They're urging everyone to protect themselves by wearing bells and carrying pepper spray.

Campers should be alert for signs of fresh bear activity, and they should be able to tell the difference between Black Bear dung and Grizzy Bear dung.

Black Bear dung is rather small and round. Sometimes you can see fruit seeds and/or squirrel fur in it.

Grizzly Bear dung has bells in it, and smells like pepper spray!
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		What makes you think a cop
by: Otter

What makes you think that only a cop would be able to draw, fire, and kill a charging bear? Most cops have never drawn their weapons and some are rusted in the holsters.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Talk about out of touch!
by: Anonymous

Hey *Editor*

When people ask if they can carry a firearm, it's not because they are concerned about bears. It's the two legged predators that concern us. I don't want to encounter someone who's cooking meth or wanting to rape someone who happens to be miles away from civilization.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear spray is illegal
by: Dave Y

You do realize that bear spray is illegal under 36CFR regulation 2.4 right?

So notwithstanding the controversial assertion of its effectiveness, chemical irritants such as mace, pepper spray, bear spray are outlawed by NPS
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		BEARS???
by: Anonymous

What Exactly makes you think that a bear might be the reason someone would want to carry a weapon? Bears generally stay away from people. My primary concern is a small percentage of other people.

But if a bears shows up with bad intentions, I assure you it will be very sorry, and if it gets away better educated.

Oh yeah, one more thing. I was shooting "distinguished Expert" before and after, I became a cop. But as a rule most cops don't shoot well because they don't practice and most of them don't.
Aug 11, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		I don't want to kill a bear
by: Anonymous

Ranking high on the list of things I don't want to do is killing a griz. They are wonderful, majestic creatures, symbols of our shrinking wildlands of the western US and Canada. One thing I have concern with is hikers shooting at a bear that they think poses a threat, but does not. My previous encounters with bears have been from a distance (I make noise in griz country), and they have moved away, or I have skirted them. In a way, I view these bears as adding a very important element to these western lands, and Glacier, Yellowstone, etc. would simply not be the same without them. The parks would be just a bit more sterile.

That said, I did back-country hiking in Denali not too long ago. I carried a S&W 629, loaded with 320gr hard-cast flat-points in front of 23grains of H110. I know that bear spray has been used more effectively to deter bears than firearms have. That's just the truth, but it's hard to convince many people that they are better off with ONLY bear spray than a firearm.

As to the original comment about "unless you are a trained police officer" ... come on. You obviously have an inflated sense of police training and police officer's abilities to shoot proficiently. In pistol matches across the country, I outshoot law enforcement officers 90% of the time. And I am just a "regular guy."
Aug 10, 2010
Rating
star 		Sigh All Ya Wish To, Fella...
by: Fits

...But you've as much say as the bear when it comes to telling anyone what they can or cannot do in order to protect themselves and their loved ones.

I've seen cops shoot. Their accuracy is the laughing stock of the entire country, but that isn't what's important here and now.

It's you presuming to give life and death advice to others, when you are far from qualified to do so. I've shot charging bears and I don't get to make that choice, either.

But at least I KNOW that I don't.
Aug 10, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		guns and bears
by: Anonymous

I just love these comment sections, especially the ones from you liberal, tree hugging, anti-gun, bear and wolf lovers. Most of you talk about reports and polls as if they really mean something. Most of them are written by people just like you, with barely any experience in the outdoors and almost none in the bear and guns dept.
I hate to see anyone have a deadly encounter with a bear, 2 days ago I saw another grizzly that was put down by the local game & fish dept. It's a no win situation on both sides. But I have finally reached a point where I hope more of you stupid city dwellers end up on the receiving end of your own belief system. If you really believe that gentle ben won't harm you, great! Be another Timothy Treadwell. Cleanse the gene pool by sacrificing yourself first, for the good of science and ecology.
But above all, have the common decency to stop telling other people what they can and cannot do. If you hate guns, by all means, stay away from them. But do not ever, ever again tell me I cannot have or carry one on my person. I refuse to subscribe to your brand to stupidity and will not place my life in jeopardy to become a statistic in tomorrows newspaper.
Wyomarine
Aug 10, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstar 		unless you're a trained cop....
by: Scott

I am not here to argue about the effectiveness of bear spray or guns, what i have a problem with is the following statement. "Unless you're a trained cop, you will not be able to pull your gun out, aim, and shoot it dead with the fear of a charging Grizzly Bear." I would tend to disagree with you. I am not a police officer, but i do train with my firearms on a regular basis (2-3 times per month minimum). Most police departments only require qualification with firearms 1 or 2 times per year, which means some (not all) officers only practice 1 or 2 times per year. What I am saying is that not all police officers are trained better than all civilians.

Aug 10, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		It isn't just bears we have to watch out for.
by: Chris Mallory

There are two legged predators who are just as dangerous as any bear. The two who are on the run from the Arizona prison break and are/where thought to be in the Yellowstone area are just the latest example. A prudent person will carry both the bear spray and a handgun.
Aug 10, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bad role model
by: Anonymous

"Trained cops" are perhaps not the ones whose standards you want to uphold...

They kill more bystanders and injure themselves more often than arms-bearing civilians. Training is good, but don't train to those standards.
Aug 09, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		guns
by: Anonymous

the fed govt has no authority to ban guns anywhere anytime, the 2nd amendment prohibits fed govt from putting any restrictions or limitations on firearms
Aug 09, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Thank You
by: Dennis K

Thank you.

I simply wanted to assert that BOTH the spray, which is effective in many situations (but not always under certain conditions) and firearms, were appropriate and I, for one, am delighted to see that the government has pulled back just a little from the affairs of it's citizens.

Over the years I have taught survival and Hunter Safety, I have advised using the sprays available except when conditions do not give them a chance of being effective. They aren't worth a darn when you've wind blowing.

The best world is avoidance of the situation by remaining ever aware of your surroundings. You may not avoid ALL close encounters, but you can avoid most. If you do see a bear, be content watching him from a distance via binoculars and be willing to back off, rather than advance into his personal space. And for the love of God, watch out for cubs.
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Senseless, indeed.
by: Gordon D.

First and quickly, to "Good for you, Editor" No where did I say someone is "taking my guns". Your comment is a mirror image of yourself; you are the one with the closed mind, impossible to see anything beyond your own agenda, proven by resorting to insulting those who think different.

There is no hope for you, because you are closed minded.

To Perry, I think you've misinterpreted the whole thing. and if my rambling made my position unclear I apologize.

You may consider the different scenarios as "assumptions" but they only go to show that the summary the USFW wrote on the page you linked to, is inconclusive, and without the DATA is meaningless. No facts are stated, it's too vague. There are too many different variables that affect the outcome. You can interpret it how you want. Simply law of statistics.

I won't waste yours or my time with it any longer, after this post. But I will end with this:
Bear spray is the a great choice when hiking on trails, and if you surprise a bear and he attacks out of fear.

But, what if a bear stalking you? What if he views you as a food source? Spray may slow him down, but you are dinner.

Consider this if a bear enters a campground and only get into your food cache or garbage, Why is the standard plan of the wildlife biologist to trap/incapacitate and relocate the bear? If a bear attacks and kills or injures a Person, do they seriously consider destroying that bear?

Spray versus firearm? Both. Depends on your situation.

Think this way- an analogy. I need a gallon of milk do I take my 1 ton chevy truck 1/2 mile to the corner store, or my chevy aveo?

I need 50 sheets of paneling to finish my basement; do I take my 1 ton chevy truck 1/2 mile to the hardware, or my chevy aveo?

The right tool for the right job.

Lastly, I admire the fact that you are fortunate to have the drive, ambition, and perseverance to do what you love, and to make your dreams come alive. Not many have or take advantage of that opportunity.

I'll keep you in my prayers. At 23 years old, and a year and a half of it in Glacier National Park, You have a lot to learn and experience in your life.

If, and God forbid, you are ever attacked by a grizzly bear, I hope you've made the right choice.

Please be careful.

May God bless you,
Gordon

P.S.
Have you considered going back to school to study Wildlife Biology? I think you might be a great candidate! Your young, now is the time!
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Anti Gun Editor
by: Anonymous

Mr anti gun, tree huggin editor,

If you can convince all the park rangers to lay down their firearms and go out with mace only, when dealing with bears in the park, then I will not show up with my gun on a hike.

But that won't happen.

So I will have my 44 Mag on my hip along with my can of Mace.
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Assumptions, Assumptions...
by: Perry

Gordon,

The number of assumptions in your dissection of that report cannot be counted on both hands.

Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		These gun folk are crazy
by: Good for you, Editor

These gun rights folk sure are crazy.

Good for you, Editor. But you can't expect to win with them. They are too passionate and delusional to see facts when laid out in front of them.

Maybe their paranoia makes them think everyone is bias. Or maybe because they are gun rights folk, they are paranoid that everyone is out to take away their guns.

I dunno, it's sorta the what came first, chicken or egg, kinda thing. don't you agree?
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Senseless arguing 3
by: Anonymous

So, the study? Can't be taken as a gospel generic conclusion, because, it depends on the situation you are going to present yourself.

The individual must decide. If your going hunting, Take both. You will need to be 10 times more careful, because regardless of what you use for a deterrent, YOU ARE FOOD.

Going hiking? Count on the spray. You most likely going to surprise a bear and he is only trying to get you to leave, rather than eat you.

Camping? Sleep with one eye open, and a gun under your pillow. If a bear comes in your tent he's not bluffing. He's hungry.

Perhaps it's time to close this topic and open a new one, Guns vs spray" and let the mayhem begin.

Good luck.
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Senseless arguing 2
by: Anonymous

CONTINUED:

Back to the USFW "study", again, going back to the comments of "perceived bias" where is the bias? In the study.

I am a Quality Control Engineer. I work with statistics everyday, as I study machines and processes to improve costs and reduce scrap.

What is the biggest hurdle? Bias. Opinions of operators, engineers, supervisors, and management.

Even my own technicians who collect the data. All data, in one way or another is skewed. Look at political polls. How come two similar polls have different conclusions? Because it depends who conducted the poll, where it was done and who the participants are. They can't be trusted.

But we all tend to accept those we agree with, and discount the ones we don't. The study by the USFW may appear to be benign, but again, as I said before, they just looked at past reports (read the report, it says so!).

Here are conditions that were not considered:

1. Attacks on hunters/fishermen. Hunters leave the beaten path. They are in the bears ground zero. that' puts them at much higher risk than say hikers or campers who are more likely (though not always) to stay on or close to known trails. Hunters are also more likely to carry firearms vs bear spray.

Most hunter attacks I've read about (both black bear and grizzly) occur when A. the hunter is cleaning a downed animal or fish, B. leaving with the meat or hide.

This means this category of attacks will more likely ATTRACT a bear attack, (no bear bluffs there!)with the bear being successful. Score: guns must be ineffective

2. Attacks on Hikers. Hikers more than likely stay on known trails. Bears (Per wild life experts) tend to avoid people, and trails carry people.

However they do live there and travel across and sometimes use the trails. So, an encounter with a bear will more likely produce a bear bluff, meaning the bear doesn't intend to attack, thus lowering the likelihood of a injurious attack.

Also, Hikers are very less likely to carry a firearm, more likely to carry spray, thus giving the impression that spray wins!

3. Campers. Bears who inhabit camping areas, are more attuned to people. They quickly learn people=food, and are less afraid. Most attacks occur at night, while campers are asleep.

In these cases, the likely scenario is the bear is hungry, and is attacking to feed. The camper is asleep and by the time he realizes the bear is attacking it is to late.

You're in a tent, so spray is going to affect you more than the bear. It is most likely to be dark so a gun would be difficult to use. Neither choice is effective.

Then there is the generator of the report. The USFW, who as a law enforcement agency, view civilians with firearms as a potential enemy.

By preference, they would prefer park users ran around with pepper spray rather than guns. Easier to sort out those "drug running" criminals.

Had the NRA conducted the report, I'm sure firearms would be recommended as the best choice.

TO BE CONTINUED
Aug 05, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Senseless arguing
by: Gordon D.

Despite your denial, yes, you are anti-gun. See your original comment, answer to the real question:

"Yes, you are now allowed to carry guns in our National Parks **sigh**"

Note, the sigh. And, it is all over your Website, that you do not favor firearms, especially in the National parks.

That's cool, you are entitled to that position and I respect it, after all, Glacier National Park is your backyard. But don't kick everyone else who disagrees.

**Editor's Note**

The **sigh** is because people actually think guns will keep them safe in National Parks from grizzly bears and will probably fail to follow appropriate hiking and backpacking safety precautions to avoid a grizzly bear attack

**End (Pesky) Editor's Note**

Remember, the original question, "Am I allowed to open carry a pistol in the park?"? Not "What's the best protection against bears?" or "can I kill an attacking bear?".

Your answer to the question brought on the gun vs spray issue, and you have to expect differing opinions.

TO BE CONTINUED.
Aug 04, 2010
Rating
starstar 		Senseless arguing
by: Gordon D.

This forum has lost it's point. The original question was simply "Do you believe firearms should be allowed in National parks?"

It has become nothing more than a bitch slapping session over who thinks they know more than the other guy about guns or bears. Everyone has their right to an opinion.

So, readers, just state your opinion. if some one has a different opinion than yours, so be it.

And, Mr. Editor, I realize you are the owner of this forum/site, and you can do whatever you want with it, but it is obvious you are anti-gun, (which is OK for you) and this forum appears to be a platform for you to to amplify your position, by discounting every pro gun opinion posted.

You asked people for their opinion, so be quiet and listen. Nothing is more annoying or rude than editor injections into an opinion poll. It brings into question the maturity and intellect of the editor.

By the way, who conducted the study to determine which is more effective gun vs, spray? Nobody. If such study exists, it was written by some biologist justifying his/her position and maybe just looked back through reports of some past attacks to see who used what. Not controlled conditions.

**Editor's Note**

Hi Gordon,

I am not anti-gun. What I am in favor of is people knowing the truth and not thinking that they are safe while hiking through grizzly bear habitat because they have a gun.

The truth is that bear spray is more effective at deterring a grizzly bear attack than a gun.

A study done by the US Fish and Wildlife Service proves this. Some will automatically discount this study due to perceived bias, but this quote I'm about to share cannot be argued with. It is just fact and it proves that bear spray is more effective than a gun in preventing an injurious grizzly bear attack:

"...based on their (Law enforcement agents of US Fish & Wildlife Service) investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray (bear spray) escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries."

Argue as you wish. But the facts are the facts. Bear spray is more effective than a gun.

USFW Bear Spray vs Bullets Study
Aug 03, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Assuming... (Part 1)
by: Dennis K

**Editor's Note**
Clearly, you haven't spent any time around wildlife. Don't underestimate a bear (or moose, or bison or other creatures that have been evolving for 1000s of years). Unless going down a steep hill, they can and do stop on a dime.
**End Editor's Note**
I find that this more irritating than amusing. I have been a hunter safety instructor for over 30 years, and a hunted for 55. I have no doubt whatsoever that I have been around more wild creatures, spent more time with, and been in more situations involving wildlife than you have dreamt of. I have instructed primitive weapons hunters, modern firearms hunters, and period hunters. I have taught survival courses for over 20 years. I have difficulty seeing this attempt at belittling someone you do not know amusing.

**Editor's Note**

OK, in the anonymity of the Internet Age, I'd believe your claims... but your original statement about a bear charge shows you do not know what a bluff charge is or how grizzly bears act in the wilderness

**End Editor's Note**

**Editor's Note**
Yeah, you've definitely never been in a threatening situation in the wilderness.
**End Editor's Note**

Perhaps I am not an idiot, stumbling through the living room of a grizzly with no clue as to why I am there. I have been close enough to Brown Bear on Kodiak to smell their breath. In both the Smoky Mountains of West Virginia and the back woods of Maine, I have been close enough to Black Bear to see individual hairs. I did not have the vaunted bear spray, but I did have both a rifle and a backup pistol each time. I did not kill bear. I do not hunt bear. To this point, I have never had to destroy one of these animals because I did something so incredibly stupid.

Perhaps I have not been in a ‘threatening situation in the wilderness’. I did not believe myself to be threatened, but I was quite wary of these magnificent beasts.
Aug 03, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Assuming... (Part 2)
by: Dennis K

**Editor's Note**
I never dismissed handguns to a role as a flyswatter. You know what assuming does, don't you?
As most people who have experience in grizzly bear encounters will tell you, bear spray is a more effective deterrent. We speak from experience.
Besides your rear end, what do YOU speak from?
**End Editor's Note**

Is that a royal ?WE?? What experience are ?WE? speaking from? Tramping in the backyard of the grizzly together with a million others every year and calling it ?wilderness?? I know wilderness exists in Yellowstone and Glacier, but the person who was killed was in a campground, or have you forgotten?

**Editor's Note**

They were killed outside of Yellowstone in a National Forest. It was also the first fatal bear attack in over a decade. Park Rangers believe everyone stored food properly.

Both a tragedy and an anomaly.

**End Editor's Note**

Yellowstone and Glacier are essentially open fence zoos in my opinion.

The question was if firearms were appropriate for National Parks. The answer is absolutely yes. I never said that spray was not appropriate, but you insist on denigrating everything I have said that is contrary to your opinion, citing your ?experience?. I have said repeatedly that both are appropriate, one as a backup for the other. Obviously one would try the spray first, but if it fails and you?ve no other recourse, the bear would have little problem eliminating your future tracks in his living room.

My approach is a reasonable and reasoned one, and I have not been obnoxious when stating my response. What say you?

**Editor's Note**

I agree with you, Dennis.
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Putting Bears Aside...
by: Daniel

I've never had an encounter with a bear before, but if you do pack a handgun smaller than a .44 magnum for these magnificent creatures, here's a tip: File down the gun sights. This way it won't hurt as bad when the bear shoves it up your "you know what".

All jokes aside, I do support the possession of firearms in National Parks--but not really because of the bears but the two-legged creatures. I know, you're probably not going to run into a lot of folks in Glacier while hiking, but they are your most common threat no matter where you are. And unfortunatly, I do speak from experience on that one. It's why I now carry a .357 Ruger SP101 with me on walks around the neighborhood.
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Commenting on the Comments
by: Dennis K

"* Easier and quicker to use against a charging bear coming 35 MPH."

Reader Comment: If a bear is running at 35MPH until he gets within the effective range (8-15 feet - that is 96 to 180 INCHES!) of the intended victim, the likelihood that contact will be made is quite high. In all downplays of the use of firearms, the comment is made that you have to shoot when the bear is doing 35 MPH, so let's at least do equal comparisons here. I don't think the bear has that good a braking system. After all, 400# of meat dropping down on you at 51.3 feet per second has a lot of momentum.

**Editor's Note**

Clearly, you haven't spent any time around wildlife. Don't underestimate a bear (or moose, or bison or other creatures that have been evolving for 1000s of years).

Unless going down a steep hill, they can and do stop on a dime.

**End Editor's Note**

"* Most bear charges are bluffs. If you shoot the bear during a bluff, this will enrage them and provoke an attack. Bear spray does not enrage, just confuse and scare"

Reader comment: If he's gonna 'bluff' when charging you when you're holding spray, will he not 'bluff' when you're holding a firearm? If the bear 'bluffs' why would someone with a firearm be more apt to go banging away than someone with a can of bear mace? If you can hold your cool with a can of pepper spray, you can hold your cool with a firearm in your hand just as well.

**Editor's Note**

Yeah, you've definitely never been in a threatening situation in the wilderness.

**End Editor's Note**

"* A handgun won't do much against a grizzly bear. You need a shotgun to be effective. How many people will carry a shotgun while hiking?"

Reader comment: "A lowly Colt .45 from the days of the frontier will penetrate something like 16" of pine. Now, I know that bears are tough and hard and mean as all get out, but to say that such a handgun won't harm a bear is a little to Disney-like for me. A .44 Magnum is not unreasonable to handle, nor is the venerable .44 Special (which most ladies can shoot quite well). A .357 is a little light, but a .40 SW, a .41 Mag or a .45 ACP is capable of making lots of noise and being relatively effective. We haven't even mentioned the .450 Ruger or the .500 S&W. I would avoid 9mm and .38 specials and anything smaller, but any reasonable handgun will do as well as a shotgun.

I believe it is a disservice to dismiss handguns to a role that is little more than a flyswatter, ineffective, useless and with no more power than a hand-held noisemaker and no more speed than a matchlock from the 14th century.

**Editor's Note**

I never dismissed handguns to a role as a flyswatter. You know what assuming does, don't you?

As most people who have experience in grizzly bear encounters will tell you, bear spray is a more effective deterrent. We speak from experience.

Besides your rear end, what do YOU speak from?
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear Spray Cannot Be Relied On
by: Bill G - Tulsa

Bear spray is not a cure-all for bear country hiking, and it is not 100 percent reliable. How can you gurantee that the bear will always be downwind for example? Remember Murphy's law? I was in Glacier Park three weeks ago and on several days there were winds gusting over 40 mph.

As the previous poster stated, either carry bear spray in your hand (that is the best method) or in a container on your chest for ready access. In windy conditions or in thick brush, you can be surprised by a bear at close range, and have little time to react. I recommend carrying two cans of bear spray in case the first one doesn't work, or it runs out before you have subdued the bear. By all means, resist the urge to discharge the spray before the bear is within range (15 feet or less) as you very well may run out of spray before the bear has been subdued. As a law enforcement officer, I have used pepper spray on many occasions on dogs and humans and understand its limitations.

Remember, in the event of a grizzly charge, the vast majority of people will begin spraying too soon, before the bear is within range, wasting valuable amounts of the bear spray. That's what Jack Hanna did in his recent encounter with a charging grizzly in Glacier Park. He was lucky that he had enough spray left to counter the bear's charge when it actually got within range, as he had sprayed twice at the bear before it was actually within range.

I recommend practicing with the bear spray before you go into bear country so you can see how it works and what kind of range it has. That would be cheap insurance in the event of a bear attack. I recommend buying three cans of bear spray. One to practice with and two to carry while hiking. Don't ever carry a partially emptied can of bear spray in grizzly bear country. Every adult member of a hiking group should be carrying bear spray. Carrying bear spray should be required by law when hiking in grizzly country. To do otherwise is foolhardy and irresponsible. It can save your life and the bear's life. Remember, if you are injured by a grizzly, the Park Service Rangers will hunt the bear down and kill it.
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear Spray Works: Take It From a Wildlife Photographer
by: A Wildlife Photographer

It works, but get the larger canister Comments about Counter Assault Bear Deterrent Spray - 230g.

I'm a wildlife photographer and I can tell you from personal experience that this stuff works, but only when used properly.

Get the larger canister. For a few bucks more you get a few seconds more of spray and that can mean all the difference.

When deployed, the canister will put out a decent sized fog cloud that your target will either run into or have it blown into its face.

In Grizzly country, carry it in your hand (best) or pocket on your chest or front of pants where you can get to it IMMEDIATELY.

DO NOT carry it in your backpack. I do not recommend using a belt holster. Too difficult to draw in a hurry and more of an opportunity to drop it when you need it most.

Practice popping off the trigger safety. Deploy at the distance recommended on the can (very important).

If you deploy too early (this is hard to refrain from doing) the fog is less likely to deter the bear.

This product will (obviously) not protect you if the wind is blowing towards you or you are in a crosswind situation.

Make sure the wind is blowing towards the bear, into its face.

Once you discharge the canister, even part way, do not reuse, buy a new one.

Also toss the canister after the expiration date.

Talk loud, make noise, use a bell, and most likely you'll never use bear spray and will toss it out after it expires.
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Carrying Guns & Bear Spray in National Parks
by: Anonymous

I have carried a firearm in the national parks since 1971 (yes, I know it wasn't legal until recently).

I also carry bear spray and it is my first line of defense.

I carry a firearm as a backup to the bear spray. I am a law enforcement officer and have earned the master marksman badge with a pistol.

I am glad that it has finally been made legal to carry a firearm in the national parks. However, it is my right to protect myself, whether the Park Service likes it or not, and whether it is legal or not.

I'm not going to be killed by a grizzly bear or a thug just because the Park Service doesn't like guns.


There is an old saying in law enforcement - "I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six."
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Firearms / Spray pros and cons
by: Dennis K

If you choose spray instead of a firearm, here are some pros and cons from the link provided by the editor of this guide.

Let me give you some pros and cons about firearms:

Pros: Built in noisemaker. Not absolutely necessary to kill a bear to discourage it (noise-human association). Will terminate an attack when properly employed. May be quickly reloaded. Holsters are made to facilitate rapid deployment. Safeties are made to be easily manipulated. Modern firearms are made to be user friendly and point and shoot will put you on target at close ranges.

Cons: expensive (one time expense). Not always accepted by people who do not understand the reality that there are things in the world that will HURT you and those you love and do not care HOW you "FEEL" about it. Heavier than spray. Does require some practice for extreme efficiency.

**Editor's Note**

Good pros and cons list, but few people in this argument have clamored on about 'touchy feely tree huggy' crap.

I suspect those that do have have 0 experience hiking in grizzly bear habitat. Likewise, I suspect those that blabber on about 'it's your god given right, my country gives me the right' crap have 0 experience hiking in grizzly bear country, too

**End Editor's Note**

--Comments on Spray --

We had to use this on a black bear in California. It was completely ineffective at 25 feet. Only at about eight feet did this act as a mild deterrent.

We got the impression that the bear simply found it annoying, and that it would be totally useless in an assault situation. In the end, it saved our food cache and an expensive backpack from total decimation, but I would absolutely not rely on this stuff as a deterrent against attack.

I give it a 3 for saving our food/gear, and I'll probably carry it in the future, but I would prefer a spicier version!

**Editor's Note**

Just like a gun is useless in the hands of an untrained user, bear spray is useless in the hands of someone that does not know how to use it.

Bear spray is rarely effective from that far out. It's supposed to be used within the range on 5-15 feet, which is as close as a bear would get when charging you.

Terrifying, right? Well, thankfully most grizzly bear charges are bluffs, so even if it gets that close to you, it had no intention of actually hurting you--just making sure you're not a threat.

At that range, bear spray works and it will deter the bear from coming closer. A gun on the other hand might enrage it further and result in a vicious attack.

**End Editor's Note**
Aug 02, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Did they have bear spray?
by: Bear Spray

What percent of people who get attacked by bears have bear spray? Is it really a 100% way to chase a bear away?

**Editor's Note**

There are no official statistics out about the percentage of people attacked that used bear spray.

Also, there is no 100% way to prevent a grizzly bear attack.

However, bear spray has been found to be a more effective deterrent than a handgun in preventing an attack.

This is due to the fact that:

  • Easier and quicker to use against a charging bear coming 35 MPH
  • Most bear charges are bluffs. If you shoot the bear during a bluff, this will enrage them and provoke an attack. Bear spray does not enrage, just confuse and scare
  • A handgun won't do much against a grizzly bear. You need a shotgun to be effective. How many people will carry a shotgun while hiking?


In short:

Carry bear repellent.

Know how to react during a grizzly bear attack

And always follow the appropriate precautions for hiking through grizzly bear habitat

If you listen and follow these instructions, you will have a 99.9% chance of being perfectly fine while hiking in Glacier or Yellowstone.

Remember, you have a better chance of drowning in these parks than being attacked by a grizzly bear.
Jul 31, 2010
Rating
starstarstar 		Guns in National Parks Means Responsible Stewardship
by: Gordon Dowen

Every American citizen, under the Second Amendment has the right to bear arms to protect himself, and his family from all forms of danger, whether it be military, criminal or natural.

In cases involving animals, I believe when human life is in danger, one should be allowed to protect himself or others regardless of the government protection status of the animal. This is not wanton disregard of the animals life, but protection of human life, which is far greater in importance.

God gave man stewardship of all his creation including animals, intending that we are to protect, respect, and manage in the manner that best suits the needs of man.

We are not to waste or destroy such resources, but protecting oneself from, and harvesting for food of those resources is responsible stewardship.
Jul 31, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear Spray
by: Dennis K

Check out the USER comments (not the 'studies') of the people who have reviewed bear spray (pepper spray) on the website cited in the first comment on this page.

**Editor's Note**


Yes, please do read user reviews of bear spray.

**End Editor's Note**

I'd rather use a drum and beat on it than have to rely on a fog and 'pfffttt' when a bear is 15 feet from me doing 35 mph. Maybe I could shove the drum in the bear's mouth and beat on his head with the sticks.

**Editor's Note**

Wow. This guy's good. Have you ever even hiked in your life before?

Doubtful that you've ever seen a grizzly bear outside of a zoo.

**End Editor's Note**

Any Idea what amount of time it takes a full-tilt bear to cover 15'? No? Well, let me tell you. Calculations show that the Bear will cover 35x5280/3600 feet per second. That is 51.333... feet per second at full charge. 15/51.333 equals 0.29221 seconds, give or take two or three 100,000ths of a second.

Sweetheart, that is not much time for a bear to run into a cloud of spray (if you even got it activated) and make a decision that he didn't want pepper with his meat for that meal.

**Editor's Note**

First, don't call me sweetheart.

Next, the vast majority of grizzly bear charges are bluffs. This means that the grizzly bear will stop before reaching you. It is just testing you to see if you're a threat.

Since you're so into statistics and all, why not read up and learn about what causes grizzly bear attacks

**End Editor's Note**

'But the bear won't be running full speed when he reaches you...' you say! So, if that is the fact, then you have a better chance to snap off a couple of rounds into the ground in his direction, making a heck of a loud human-generated noise, and if that fails, to take a bit better than random shot at the bear himself.

In other words, in the realm of potential life-saving devices, I would still take a firearm only over pepper spray only any day, anywhere, any time.

And btw - there is a difference between NPS lands which are public, and Air Force One. All a matter of security. Should the President come to a National Park, the likelihood of restrictions being as high on the NPS lands as on AF1 are quite high, and the likelihood of being able to step into that particular NPS arena are consequentially quite low. That doesn't change the fact that NPS lands are Federal Lands owned by the Taxpaying Public and supported by their tax dollars and use.
Jul 31, 2010
Rating
starstarstar 		Make mine a double.
by: Doug

I know that a handgun is a poor choice for a bear attack. I'm saying that as one who loves to hunt with a handgun. Hitting a vital organ at something coming at you at 35 mph while bouncing up and down as it charges would be a mighty tough shot. There is also the possibility of small trees deflecting the bullet as well. IF attacked by a bear I would much rather have a shotgun with slugs, or my .45-70 lever gun. Nonetheless, I will have at least a .41 or .44 mag with me.

I get sick of the stupid argument that bears like pepper spray because it adds spice to their meal. If you have a good bear spray like UDAP, www.udap.com/ it will be a much better deterrent, and the fog (not spray) comes out with a good deal of force and sticks to the critter.

I admit that I have more fear of 2 legged varmints in the National Park setting than I do of 4 legged ones. Meth labs, marijuana crops . . . yes they're out there. And criminals will be armed. One reason why Rangers carry guns. In Big Bend you also have to worry about coyotes (the human kind) smuggling illegals across the border. Back in the early 70s when I first go in to backpacking, everyone you met on the trail was your friend and more than willing to help you out. Today, forty years later, things have changed. It's a dangerous world out there. Those who have their heads buried in the sand and refuse to accept this will learn the hard way.

So I carry both. UDAP and a Colt Anaconda loaded with 300-gr. Federal CastCores.

The age old question: If an environmentalist is being attacked by a bear, do you shoot the bear, or let nature take its course?
Jul 30, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Gun or no gun . . .
by: Anonymous

If you are in a National Park, and you see a bear attacking one of these anti-gun folks, should you shoot the bear, or let nature take its course?
Jul 30, 2010
Rating
starstarstar 		No Guns in National Parks
by: Anonymous

No.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Hate to, but it's unlikely I'll play dead
by: KCToon

I just arrived from Glacier and will be in Yellowstone for the next few days. Sure, I'll carry($40)bear repellent; but I've been chased by a grizzly (at Norris campground in Yellowstone - where grizzlies hadn't been seen in 20 years) and know that there are no 'safe' places in this Park and no predictable grizzlies.

Therefore, when hiking, I will probably carry my .45 on my belt at the small of my back, just under my pack. This will minimize my fear that a hiker will easily see the firearm and grab for it - either out of a misguided sense of responsibility or because he's a closet gun enthusiast.

**Editor's Note**

You can't be serious.

**End Editor's Note**

It'll also be there to protect my wife and myself when the bear repellent fizzles out. I'd like to be able to play dead under an attacking grizzly bear, but I'm a man and thus lack the steady practicality of Deb Freele who was able to use good sense while her arm was being broken in the mouth of a grizzly.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Gun Opinion
by: Anonymous

Absolutely, guns should be allowed in National Parks! Rely on local gun laws for regulation and guidance.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		People kill, not guns
by: Coop

I just got back from Yellowstone. Packed my .40 along with bear spray for every hike, every day. I didn't get caught and don't know what would have happened if I did get caught. It is a right that we citizens have....I think as long as you have taken a concealed carry class, that all parks should recognize your license and right to pack heat.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No camping; No firearms.
by: Anonymous

Yellowstone and Glacier N.P. = Grizzly Country. Camping belongs in lower elevations, and firearms belong in the gun safe.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstar 		No Guns in National Parks
by: Anonymous

I am absolutely against allowing guns in National Parks. It should be a sancutary from all firearms except those carried by law officials and is unnecessary for tourists, joggers, hikers, etc., who should carry other non-lethal defenses.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		We all have rights
by: Dennis K

It is apparent that the owner of the page does not agree with firearms in the park or any other park.

**Editor's Note**

My belief, which has been backed up through numerous studies, is that bear spray is more effective at deterring a charging grizzly bear (and thus, preventing an attack) than a gun.

**End Editor's Note**

There is a place for firearms in National Parks. National Parks are part of Federal Lands, Federal Lands are lands owned by the Federal Government, ergo owned by the proprietors of the Federal Government, which derives its just powers from (drumroll please).... the People. Therefore, Federal Lands and National Parks are in fact, Public Lands.

National Parks were, until this year, the only Public Lands where firearms were not permitted. This was (thankfully) changed this year when President Obama signed the change into law. There are still places in National Parks where restrictions exist, but in your tent isn't one of them, nor are hiking trails in the backwoods restricted.

Firearms make loud noises (substantially louder than the 'pfffftt' of pepper spray or the tinkling bells on your anklets). Wild animals - even predators - tend to avoid humans and loud noises. Ergo, humans causing loud noises with firearms tend to avoid being eaten by predators.

Yes - humans in Glacier or any other western NP are invading wild predators space. Therefore, why are you there? Why do 10 million idiots insist on tramping through their homes? And, why do many of those idiots insist that the back to nature approach be followed, if a better way exists? Makes no sense to me, friends.

A person hiking in the backwoods or camping in the living room of griz should carry pepper spray (check). He, she or it should also carry a firearm (check). He, she or it should also be sure to make noise (check). No surprises are nice.

If you carry a firearm (and it is a CHOICE, not a COMMAND) do all of your hiking companions the honor of knowing how to use it efficiently and of having practiced with it enough to know which end the bullet comes out. That said, those of you who choose NOT to carry a firearm, do those of us who DO the courtesy of limiting your snippy remarks to your own tent - keep them out of mine. I have rights that I choose to exercise, you have rights you choose to ignore.

I do not condemn you for choosing as you wish. You should offer the same courtesy to me. We will all get along with no problems, and, should I see you being attacked by a predator - 2 or 4 legged - I will come to your aid in a proper manner, exercising self-restraint and minimally invasive / damaging techniques.

Can I trust that you will run 100 yards brandishing your pepper spray and yelling should you see me or my wife or my four-year old daughter in trouble?
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		A case for carrying a firearm
by: Dennis K

Firearms are Absolutely invaluable tools in any location. Having a firearm at least gives a human being a chance of surviving an attack by a large predator such as a cougar or bear..

You must understand that in most cases, predators are simply looking for a meal - it isn't a malicious thing. However, if, for example, a cougar attacks a human, it is usually from the back and you might have 2-3 seconds warning if you're lucky. If a friend is nearby and sees the attack and the friend is armed, there's a chance of rescue. Otherwise, if the cougar is well experienced, you're dead moments after he or she hits your back, drives you into the ground, and bites through your spinal cord.

Bears are nearly as fast as a cougar, exponentially more powerful, but more deliberate in an attack. They're opportunists - omnivores who will eat anything, humans included - if the opportunity presents itself. Having food out, food trash around (food wrappers, etc.) is a known invitation for bear intrusions which can have fatal consequences. That said, a firearm doesn't have to be lethal to a bear if it is discharged near them. Often the report of the firearm will "shock" a bear into awareness that he is dealing with a human being, and the bear will break off the attack.

Sprays - pepper, bear repellent, etc. - depend on contact with the bear. Digging a spray container out, enabling it, directing the spray as recommended by its manufacturer (usually into the eyes) and doing all these things as a bear is dragging your hind end out of a tent with your thigh in his mouth at 4 AM when it is as dark as pitch, is somewhat difficult at best. Discharging a firearm into the air is simpler and easier, and if simple discharge is not effective, sticking the barrel against the head of the bear and discharging it again is quite persuasive.

The likelihood of being attacked by a bear or any other wild animal is low, albeit horrifying in concept and reality. A firearm is useful to repel attacks, often without harming the animal. On the other hand, sprays require relatively specific placement to have any effect at all. Not only can firearms provide some protection from animals, they can also provide a level of protection from other human beings, who are every bit as rapacious as any four-legged predator.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No guns
by: DF

Guns would introduce people who panic, can't shoot straight and all kinds of dangers to the animals. The bear spray would be better.

I am totally against allowing guns in the park.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Wilderness Protection
by: Duncan Hagemeyer

I live 15 miles from Yellowstone National Park. Ground Zero for gizzlies and mountain lions.

I totally agree with those that do not want guns toting tourists in the NP system, but I support the legalization of carrying firearms anywhere in the National Forrest or park system when one is in the backcountry.

It might be a good idea to require a person to possess a permit for backcountry hiking, which allows a firearm. It could be as simple as submitting a form at the trailhead that is left in a secure box.

This permit would inform others of who is on the trail and where they are going. In addition, the permit states you possess a firearm.

I always leave a note on my car that states my phone numbers and the time of day I left and my expected return. I am not talking about allowing guns on a walking path to a natural attraction.

I also think that a gun is a last resort.

It is pretty well established that bear pepper spray is the best first line of defense. I have conditioned myself to use the bear spray first, then the gun only when the attack enters the proximity zone of about 15 feet.

In general it must still be about personal responsibility, not a government program.

Frankly, I would fear armed tourists far more than the grizzlies that live in my region.

**Editor's Note**

Well said, Duncan. And a fine idea about the permits.

It is very annoying reading people in this discussion argue that guns should be carried simply because it is their right. The truth is, these same people have probably never seen a grizzly bear in the wild.

Education is your best weapon, people.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		SUE THE LIBS
by: Anonymous

WHY IS ANYONE SURPRISED? THE PRO GRIZZ ANIMAL RIGHTS WACKJOBS ARE RESPONSIBLE. I HOPE THE SURVIVORS SUE THE CRAP OUT OF THE SIERRA CLUB AND THE REST OF THE CRAZY LIBS.

HELL YES EVERYONE SHOULD BE ARMED.

**Editor's Note**

First, why the Capslock? Nobody enjoys reading anything in all caps. It just makes you look like an idiot.

Next, I have no idea what you're talking about and I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

The law permitting handguns to be carried in National Parks was passed under the Obama Administration. Are you saying this is a stupid rule and that people should sue the Government if someone is shot in a National Park?

My impression was that you're saying people should sue the 'crazy libs' for not allowing handguns in National Parks--but the 'crazy libs' were the ones who allowed handguns to be carried in National Parks.

**sigh**
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		NO to firearms in national parks
by: Bob G

I do not want to allow park visitors to carry guns.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Wheres my gun! It's a ground squirrel !!!
by: Joe

Who are these mental midgets that came up with this idea? Now "I" have to carry a gun to protect myself from idiots carrying GUNS!!! In a National Park, no less.

Grizzly bear attacks now take a back seat to butt heads with guns who wanna steal my backpack or worse yet, some city slicker who thinks I look like or sound like "A BEAR!!!!!!".

My family and I have been to Glacier, Yellowstone, and Grand Teton National Parks at least eight times since 2001 and there is nothing more exciting to experience then a Bear Jam.

To have so many people at one time in one place be able to watch such a majestic animal in the wild.

The sound of hundreds of camera shutters clicking away is suddenly interrupted by the deafening sound of a gun shot.

Hundreds of people with guns, one dead bear. Let's not forget the magnanimous Bison. Mom tells little Johnny to get closer to the Bison so she can get a cool picture of him. Suddenly the kid gets tossed like rag doll and two seconds later, the Buffalo is dead from a bullet to the head. Little Johnny's dad was packing a heater.

Way to go National Park Service. You have no way in hell of ever being able to police this.

**Editor's Note**

The National Park Service was against this law. This law was passed in late summer 2009 under the Obama Administration.

**End Editor's Note**

So now we can begin the painful task of writing the final chapter in the fate of the wildlife in our National parks. Maybe we should allow guns in our petting zoo's too. You never know about those crazy sheep.

Well, I could go on and on and on but somehow I don't think any of it would make any difference. We as humans just don't like it when the scales aren't tipped in our favor. All we need to do now is teach the wildlife how to read. "BEWARE OF THE HUMAN IDIOTS CARRYING GUNS".

Kind a makes you wanna teach the animals how to use guns doesn't it.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Guns in National Parks
by: Anonymous

Yes, however, the gun should be no less than a .38 / .357 caliber.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Side Arm as a Backup to Bear Spray
by: Jeffrey Bates

I have hiked in Glacier. I will always carry bear spray and this would be the first line of defense I would use.

However, as in the Jack Hanna case, he would have been defenseless if the grizzly bear cub would have continued or if the Mother Grizzly Bear had decided he or his party was a threat and the pepper spray was exhausted.

I have seen on television that Rangers use shot guns with rubber bullets (of course the guns are very loud), as well as a recent incident of a wildlife photographer using a gun shot (not aiming at the bear) to scare off a mother grizzly bear charge in Glacier National Park.

Seems to me that a sidearm would be an effect back up to bear spray.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Guns in Glacier
by: Anonymous

NO!!!! Never. We are encroaching on their territory. A better idea would be no tent camping where bears frequent.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No Guns Should Be Allowed In National Parks
by: Anonymous

No guns should be allowed in the National Parks.

When people go to visit the National Parks, they are well aware of the dangers as signs are posted thoughout.

The animals are wild and in their home; a home that is supposed to be protected and safe from hunting, hunters and guns.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Guns Should Be Allowed In National Parks: It's Common Sense, People
by: Anonymous

Absolutely! Guns should be allowed in National Parks.

Don't get me wrong, bear spray should be carried. However, to depend on a can of spray, with a expiration date is insanity.

A fire arm, preferably with a lanyard, makes me feel more comfortable even though bear spray is carried.

As long as I have been traveling in the back country or camping in a structured campground I have always carried a 44 Magnum with me, illegal or not.

After all this is my country and my life.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		People Travel To Glacier For Nature, Not To Kill It!!
by: Anonymous

No!!! Absolutely no guns should be allowed in National Parks!

People go to Glacier National Park to be part of nature, not kill it.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Of Course Guns Should Be Allowed In National Parks
by: Anonymous

Of course, guns should be allowed. A person should be allowed to protect their loved ones.


Apartment dwellers dictate way to much policy and opinion.

**Editor's Note

Not sure what living in an apartment has to do with this...
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		July 25th 1970: A Bear Attack A Gun Would Have Stopped
by: Roy hedlund

Rangers carry guns because they know the danger.

If I would have had mine in 1970 I could have saved myself and wife from a lot pain, suffering, and money.

Bears like this have attacked before and will again.

Like these folk,s we had no food and were on our Honeymoon sightseeing the country. This law needs to change and if I had it to do over again I would have broken it and taken my chances.

This area is like sleeping in a zoo without the cages.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Firearms Should Be Allowed In National Parks For Emergencies
by: Harry

I think people should have the right to carry arms in National Parks for emergencies; however I would prefer that if the firearm is used against a bear that it would be used only if bear repellent didn't work first and as a last resort.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No Guns in the Parks
by: Dave Garber

"Amercia's Best Idea" was the creation of our National Parks. Allowing guns in the parks would be America's Worst Idea.

**Editor's Note**

A law passed last fall made it legal to carry guns in National Parks

**End Editor's Note

People would start shooting them: at each other, at animals, at trees, at rocks and formations. The peace and tranquilty would be gone forever.

People go to National Parks to explore Nature on it's own terms. Guns would sway the balance in favor of people, ruining the concept of Wild and Open places.

There are many steps people can take to make themselves feel safe in the parks, among them hiking in groups and making noise, keeping children close at hand, carrying bear repellent spray, not bringing odorous foods into National Park campgrounds and keeping all foods in a hard sided container at all times.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Shall not be infringed.
by: ROb P.

All peoples of the world have inherent right to life, liberty, and property. Key to preserving and protecting ones rights is the natural right to defend oneself using the appropriate means. Our rights being inherent are unalienable, not granted by, nor taken away by government. There should be no question, there should be no debate.

Guns make us safer from predators that come in all shapes and sizes, regardless of the costume that they may adorn.

Burglars, bears, bureaucrats, choose the predator, choose the appropriate weapon, and increase your odds of survival.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No Firearms in National Parks - Just Follow Park Guidelines
by: art nadeau

No firearms should be allowed in National Parks.

Continue with current policies regarding food storage and anything that smells must be put into storage.

It will only take one person to feel so secure with a gun that they want bears visiting and leave food out to attract bears.

This exposes the next camper at that site to suffer the consequences.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Just say NO to guns
by: Anonymous

NO. NO. NO guns in National Parks. Please.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Glacier national park bear attack and firearms
by: Anonymous

I don't think that firearms should be allowed. I do think that campers should be prepared for wild animals as they are in their territory. Campers should have pepper spray or bear repellant handy and rig a string of cans or something to alert them of an animal approaching the tent...

Editor's Note**

Rigging a string of cans would scare a bear and result in a terrible outcome.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear Spray Is Effective, But Guns Should Still Be Allowed
by: Micah

I agree that bear spray is a strong defense in a bear attack; however, I vote that guns and firearms should be allowed in National Parks by those USA citizens that choose to carry them and are licensed to carry them.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Grizzly bear attacks
by: Anonymous

Absolutly--no firearms should be allowed in the national parks. Bear spray has been proven to be effective, and no firearms are needed.
Jul 29, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No firearms in National Parks
by: Janet Penk

Sure. "Halt or I'll shoot!" That'll work!
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstar 		Firearms in National Parks
by: Doug Davis

Guns should be allowed in National Parks as long as the people with them have been trained and licensed to carry them.

People should be allowed every opportunity to protect themselves and their families. National Parks are becoming more and more dangerous, not just from dangerous animals, but from drug smugglers, drug labs, and those smuggling illegals aliens into the US.

These people know the park visitors are unarmed and if they wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time they are helpless.

Gee, the Rangers carry guns. Wonder why?
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Bear attack
by: Anonymous

Although bear spray is somewhat effective to repel bear, especially in the hands of people not experienced with firearms, firearms are far more effective.

In the hands of an experience shooter (not just someone who owns but has rarely shot a firearm) the bite of a slug or shot along with the loud noise will be more effective to deter a grizzly bear.

**Editor's Note**

This is not true according to research done about the effectiveness of bear spray versus the effectiveness of a handgun

**End Editor's Note**

For a grizzly the proper firearm would be a shotgun with 00 buck and multiple shots fired at the upper torso.

Unless it is a mother protecting her cubs, this will effectively repel any bear.

**Editor's Note**

How do you hike with a shotgun?
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Allow Guns
by: kim

I believe anyone who has a concealed weapons permit and tests out to be sane should be able to carry a firearm any place of their choosing-INCLUDING National Parks!
Thanks:)
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Do you get it? Why Guns Are Allowed In National Parks
by: National Park Fan

Yes, we should allow firearms for law abiding citizens. Guns are already in the National Parks.

All park rangers carry or have access to fire arms, for good reasons. I have brought fire arms into National Parks many times, but I always keep them secured and follow the rules. I don't bring it because of bears, most bears want nothing to do with you. I never bring it into areas not allowed, and make sure I am out of natures way when walking or hiking or staying overnight.

Bear pepper spray is a very effective way to scare off a bear, and safer for most people. There are too many ignorant and stupid tourists in Yellowstone and Glacier National Park that put too many animals in danger.

I have been going there all my life and never had a problem. I had some close encounters, but that's part of why I go.

Remember to give the animal the right-of-way. Too many visitors make the Park Rangers job way to hard. I have witnessed situations where the Park Ranger had to put his life on the line or the animals or risked injury because of a situation caused by a stupid tourist.

Remember a Park Ranger has a family they need to go home to, so make there job easier and follow the rules.

They are there for a reason. To keep everyone safe, including the wildlife, it's their home not ours.

Do you get it?
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		Guns in National Parks Should Be Allowed
by: Anonymous

Yes, people should be able to defend themselves.
Jul 28, 2010
Rating
starstarstarstarstar 		No Guns In National Parks
by: Anonymous

No Guns in National Parks. Why was this law passed?